Ethics debate--Open to all students
Okay, I'm dying to know your thoughts about this.
posted by Mr. Carlisle at 5:06 PM
Monday, February 02, 2009
About Me
- Name: Mr. Carlisle
- Location: Portland, Oregon, United States
I'm a native South Carolinian and I attained my undergraduate and graduate degrees from the University of South Carolina. I taught fourth grade for two years in the Mississippi Delta and two years at an alternative high school in Western North Carolina. I have been at Tigard High School since the fall of 2003, where I teach U.S. History and Psychology.
Previous Posts
- Psych students
- Feb. 2: Welcome to Second Semester
- Moving On
- Jan. 28
- Adv. US History
- This is too terrifying for words
- Jan. 26-Finals Week
- Adv. US History
- This has nothing to do with Chief Joseph
- Jan. 22
24 Comments:
Hmmm. Well since I'm thinking/looking at the situation objectively here; I can't really find an 'ethical dilemma' in this situation. The woman is extremely fertile, she can afford these embryo-implantation procedures (which I imagine aren't horribly expensive anyway). If she can afford to raise these children well and has the time to love and care for them all, then what is the issue? I see none.
5:40 PM
Okay, I'll play devil's advocate. The woman already has six children to take care and she's living with her parents. She's apparently unemployed and living with her parents. Most MDs would not give a woman 8 embryos. She has eight newborns to take care of on top of six other children.
5:44 PM
- She is contributing to over population.
- I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but...she MAY be trying to get attention
(14 children total...really?)
Other than that, I guess she is within her rights to have as many children as she wants to have as long as she is a responsible parent.
Ulysses is a song by Franz Ferdinand. Plus I like the name 'Ulysses'. 'Prophets of Tesco' is a line from a Franz song.
5:48 PM
When I say 'get attention' I mean press attention - obviously that has happened because it's not every day you see a woman give birth to an epic amount of kids
5:49 PM
Ulysses,
You raise some interesting points. Thanks for the head's up on the name.
5:55 PM
How could this not be a problem? The cost of eight prematurely born babies could be more than 75,000 dollars in hospital bills everyday. Do you think this jobless, single mother with 6 mouths to feed can pay for that?
Also, what about caring for them. How can one woman and her mother (the grandfather is working) care for 8 babies and 6 other kids. That is insane. Just the amount of time caring for newborn twins is astounding, not to mention 8 newborns.
There is my passionate post of the day.
6:03 PM
I do not see the problem with embryo implantation. It gives those women that CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN the chance to become mothers without risking their lives or struggling their entire life to have a child.
However this woman already had 6 implanted embryos and then has a doctor implant 8 more?! I see this woman as selfish. I do not believe that there is anyway that she could provide for all of these children--both emotionally and physically...and EQUALLY for that matter. It is unhealthy to have that many children implanted in yourself, anyways. She's risking her own life as well as the babies' lives (they came PREMATURE...people severely underestimate the death and abnormality rates in premature babies).
Despite everything wrong with having 14 babies implanted inside of you, I think it's okay to have that many children naturally. You have them spread apart and you have the time and the energy to provide each child with the nourishment and motherly care that it requires, and then you can attempt another one. But gahh. What is wrong with this woman?!
6:13 PM
This is madness.
7:28 PM
HAHAHA
Carlisle I swear that was not me
7:41 PM
I don't see a problem with having 14 kids total. But I do find it kind of crazy that the oldest one out of the 14 is 7! My mom and I were just talking about this the other day.
As far as we know, the woman does not have a husband and is living with her parents. This puts a lot of pressure on her parents to help her now not only take care of the 14 kids but also her as she is recovering from the labor.
I think it is ridiculous! And just because she couldn't have kids, doesn't mean she should have that many embryos implanted and risk the poor kids lives and health. I don't see a problem with fertilization but this is almost reaching a point too far, because she is already struggling with providing for her already 6 kids.
9:22 PM
This woman, I fear is within her rights to have as many children as she wants, although it is very irresponsible for her to bring 14 children into the world, irrespective of the health risks to her and her children. She'll have a hell of a job paying for college. Nonetheless, the state cannot set a limit on births- it's certainly a personal matter. I'm more disgusted with the fertility docter who acted such an unethical manner.
9:39 PM
If this counts as an ethical dilemma, I'm unsure over whose actions we should debate. In my understanding, no one is to blame. Doctor and patient alike realized that each embryo stands a certain chance at life - the more embryos, the greater chance that the mom will come out of the procedure with at least one child. If we're concerned with probabilistic consequences, we simply need to weigh possible outcomes.
Let's suppose that the benefits of having one child is X and the costs of having each child is Y. The probability of successful embryonic implantation is Z. The number of attempted implantations is N.
Then as long as...
(1-(1-Z)^N)*X > N*Z*Y
... the procedure is worth the risk.
For example...
X = $1,000,000
Y = $100,000
Z = 10%
N = 8
$570,000 > $80,000
In this case, the procedure is a smart choice. Other numbers (mine were admittedly arbitrary) could yield different results.
It's like playing the lottery. I wouldn't call you "dumb" for losing. Do the math and you'll find that gambling can be smart in the long run.
One more thing before I shut up and get some sleep... the numbers above are examples of expectations for the mother's happiness. In terms of societal welfare, X is nearly zero and Y is rather high. In other words, society would be better off if the mother had opted to have less babies. But as a selfish individual, she made the right choice for herself.
10:24 PM
I don't think it is a problem that she has 14 children but I think it will be very hard for her to give them the love and attention they need and equally. If she wanted that many kids then she should have spread out their ages and get a job to be able to support herself and her children without being so dependent on her parents. How is she going to take care of them? One newborn is hard and time consuming and having eight at the same time is crazy.
10:26 PM
i look at it this way... when they grow up and get older... that is 14 capable "mommy helpers". if they each clean up one room in the house and vaccum every few days>> the mom will not have to do much. she just has to get through the first couple years. kids are like an investment
10:34 PM
This was on Larry King Live tonight.
Previous children, as well as financial situation should definitely be added to that questionnaire they mentioned in the article they give all women seeking fertility treatment.
Trust me when I say it's hard enough to raise one child when your financial situation is in dire straights. With 14, it becomes damn near impossible.
I agree that she is within her rights to have as many children as she wants, however there's that whole "rights and responsibility" spiel. Just because you have the right to have 14 children, doesn't mean you should go and do it. I don't care how much you love children or what have you, she still should have thought this through past the "Oh how nice would it be to have more children" stage to the "reality" stage. It's the responsibility of the fertility clinic to help her think it through, they failed to do that.
The women is an idiot for exercising her personal rights this way, and the fertility clinic failed to both ensure any embryos they planted would be able to be properly cared for; as well as they seemingly just "dumped" a bunch in there and hoped for the best, without any kind of thought for the consequences of such actions.
In case it isn't obvious, I've been sticking to that little-l liberal hard line of "personal freedom". I'm not questioning her right to do this incredibly stupid thing, I'm just questioning her intelligence and mental health.
Speaking of mental health, is it possible she has some sort of complex that caused her to ignore reason and continue with this horrible idea?
Also ignore the fact that this is being written at 1:30 AM.
1:29 AM
What would make a single mom want 14 kids? her first six are staggered in ages from what i understood, so why did she need fertility treatment? i think what she did is very irresponsible, how is she going to afford all these children all through their life and college? im also wondering, if because she is a single mom, will she be able to collect child support on all of these kids?
4:57 PM
Dang, she just sentenced herself to a life of absolutely no sleep. I feel pretty bad for her parents, I know every mother and father would like to be a grandfather at some point but I doubt they wanted it like this. I can't even imagine how big she was! So ethically, I don't really see anything wrong with this, the women wants to complicate her life let her do it. I would strongly suggest a psych evaluation first but yeah I see nothing wrong with this unless there is proof that the first six are not happy or are not being taken care of as they would if they were separated between three separate families because this whole argument is about the well-being of the children right? As long as the children are having a good up-bringing than I see nothing wrong with this world record.
p.s. I like Tuckar's idea, the mother is secretly birthing an army of house keepers.
6:58 PM
Just did some math, turns out the average American dual-parent family with 14 children will spend about $8,500 per month just on the children alone. That doesn't include rent, utilities, or food/clothing/luxuries for anyone other than the children (totaling out to about $1.8 million to raise all 14 of them to 18).
There's not a chance in hell she's going to be able to come anywhere close to that amount. These children are going to have a terribly sub-standard life.
7:18 PM
You see this in rats.
Studies have shown that when female rats hit a lever which releases a pink baby rat down a shoot and into their cage, the female rats will continue to hit the lever until the cage is FULL of pink squirming baby rats!
Thus, this mother needs to stop hitting the baby lever.
7:46 PM
Haha I didn't even think about that! That's pretty creepy that were so advanced yet we can't stay far enough away from rat like characteristics.
Crazy related story: I heard about this women on tv that while she was in labor she experienced "orgasm like" symptoms the entire time. I'm pretty sure, if she had the opputunity, she would have eight embryos implanted in her too.
8:48 PM
I would say that she may have a need to make herself feel younger through giving birth and surround herself with youth. Or she may suffer from post pardon depression and by being pregnant trys to restore that connection between her and her children. As for the ethical grounding for her decision. I would say that her choice was shakey at best since she already had 6 children. The additional 8 kids could cause financial difficulties not to mention the many problems that this could be brought about during the development of her existing children. they could get emotionally neglected which could lead to a development of emotional disorders such as depression, anti social disorder, or anxiety disorders. They could also be phiscally neglected. With so many children she may not be able to feed all of her children enough during the early brain development causeing brain damage, and mental disorders.
4:03 PM
Mr. Caro! I remember that study!
Anyway, I think that 14 kids is excessive, and that anyone would fall apart trying to raise them.
This story almost reminds me of the story/movie "Cheaper by the Dozen", except with two more kids involved.
6:40 AM
So, it is her choice and all, but I have to feel bad for those kids. I mean, you see jealousy between two siblings, I can imagine 14. Also just think about it, not nly will it be exprensive now, but imagine when those kids might need braces, and we cannot forget about college. You see large families,(ex.the Duggar Family) The Duggars have like 18 kids, none adopted, ranging from 20-ish to really little.
Im sure that the woman had her reasonings(even though they may be ridiculous), and Im sure (i hope) her goal when she decided on the produdure that her goal was not to have octuplets. I dont know her reasoning, and the situation/ results of having octuplets are a bit... ridiculous.
9:26 PM
here is the mom speaking:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29038814/?gt1=43001
7:15 AM
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